In this “cover-to-cover” interview, book coach Ameesha Green and author Katie Grey discuss Journey of the Empowered Heart, an emotional revelation and delving invitation into the depths of trauma and truly overcoming it.
Join book coach Ameesha Green and author Katie Gray, author of Journey of the Empowered Heart, as they map the landscape of the deep inner journey from self-destruction to self-love.
In this expressive and raw discussion, Ameesha and Katie discuss writing anxieties, spiritual self-publishing, and using writing as a form of healing the past.
Turn the page on this podcast to experience a journey of emotional healing, with a vulnerable, poignant approach to both writing books and healing trauma. You’ll also get insightful approaches to becoming a first-time author, as well as the importance of listening to your heart during the writing process.
Turn the page (the time-stamp!)
[01:015] So, what made you want to decide to write a book in the first place?
[08:14] Why is the page count so important?
[08:34] Breaking genre boundaries
[16:15] Did you find anything challenging? Editing? Writing?
[24:23] Do any particular moments stand out for you?
[32:15] The importance of having the right editor
[41:32] Do you think you’ll write more books?
Buy the book: Journey of the Empowered Heart by Katie Gray
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TOPICS COVERED IN THIS EPISODE INCLUDE:
Emotional therapy
Emotional healing
Physical trauma
Social media
Author insecurites
Self-publishing
Editorial anxieties
Self-compassion
Ameesha
Welcome to Better Shelves, the podcast from The Book Shelf Ltd. We help aspiring authors to create life-changing nonfiction books. We’re based in Birmingham, but we work with authors across the globe, and our mission is to make the world a better place through books.
Hi Katie, thank you for joining us on the Better Shelves podcast. We’re here to talk to you about your book today. Your book is Journey of the Empowered Heart and if you just want to introduce yourself to people.
Katie
Thank you so much, Ameesha. My name is Katie Gray and this is my beginning as an author–a brand-new beginning, a new journey. You know, the book is called Journey of the Empowered Heart but I feel like I’m on a journey with… having gone from a place of my own suffering–my own path of self-discovery and feeling–and to put that into a body of work and share it with others the journey continues. You know, it’s been a really powerful, fascinating experience… releasing this book. I’m grateful to be here.
Ameesha
Thank you! What made you want to write a book in the first place?
Katie
It almost feels like a need. There was a desire to write the book, but then it felt also like a need. I say that in the introduction of the book but I genuinely mean that. It felt like, for myself the book is about understanding why I get to these places of feeling stuck in life and dealing with addiction and feeling deep sorrow and pain from disconnect from ourselves and others and suffering. It was a way to transform that, to understand it, to understand how we end up in that place and then how to make change in our lives. And i think for me, I didn’t really have the support I needed from many others that I was struggling and when I finally did go through my process of healing I realised: ‘Wow, it’s actually not so confusing! There is a way to heal, you know, it all makes sense.’ I kept feeling that realisation that it makes sense why I’m hurting, it make sense why I struggle for so long. ‘Oh, I have an addiction, it makes sense.’ And ‘if I get my needs met, it makes sense. I feel better.’ And I guess all of that making sense felt like something very valuable that could help others make sense of why they’re struggling so they didn’t feel lost and alone in this confusing world. That there are reasons why and it felt really clear to me and so that clarity felt like I needed to share it. It felt big. It felt like a huge discovery. And to have that discovery and then just keep it in my own hands felt wrong. If I’ve made sense of freeing and healing then it’s like a duty, I need to pass it on to anyone who needs it. I guess I wrote it because it felt like it was the right thing to do.
Ameesha
I really like that. I think one of the first things that struck me… I think when you sent that first draft early-on to me… it felt kind-of like self-help. But a lot of self-help books, they don’t really go beyond the surface level problems. It just feels like sticking a plaster on something to feel a little bit better about ourselves, but then, it doesn’t really get to the heart of what’s going on and why did we end up in this place and how can we avoid repeating those mistakes in the future? And your book it does get so deep into: what are the actual issues? What have you been avoiding? What are you not looking at? And I think the structure is quite unique and that you go really deep into that. You describe going to the darkest depths but then coming back out of it. I think that’s quite unusual in a book.
Katie
Yeah. I think it is as well. I think–I haven’t read a lot of self-help books and the ones I have read, I felt like it was soothing. You know, there was some inspiration and I felt comforted, but it felt like temporary comfort. It felt like I have a different perspective, but I was still dealing with addiction. I was still… struggling. I was still dealing with deep, deep shame. It was helpful to have comfort. Why? Why do I keep coming back here? Why am I so stuck? What’s wrong with me? What’s really wrong with me? And through my own process of recovery and healing… and not that this book is specifically for someone dealing with addiction but it’s helpful. But I think most of us deal with some form of addiction where we get stuck into this state of avoiding what’s really going on and looking outside of ourselves for some relief. I feel like part of the problem is that we’re not going deep enough into our world, into our society and our culture and the way we interact with one another… we’re scared. We’re scared to go to the secret layers because I don’t think we’re educated in how to process pain. We learn to avoid it, collectively, and then it makes sense that our solutions and self-help books… the things we have access to for support don’t necessarily go that deep because collectively we’ve all kind-of made this agreement that only goes so deep because we want everybody comfortable. And yet we’re living in this constant state of discomfort and most people are living in this long-term state of discomfort because they’re not comfortable going deep because it’s uncomfortable and we’ve made an agreement not to be uncomfortable and we’re stuck! So, it felt like everything I’ve learned about healing and working with others in their process of healing… supporting them… you have to go there. You have to go through it. Someone says, ‘Oh, she’s really going through it.’ I think, ‘Yeah, they’re going through it. They can’t go around it or avoid it.’ The avoidance is part of why we’ve ended up in this place of collective suffering–individually and collectively–because we’re not going there. We’re afraid. That fear is dominating our actions and our world really.
Ameesha
Yeah, I completely agree with you. I think, it often seems a lot easier if we avoid it and if we don’t look at what’s going on it is painful. But we really want to make a difference in our lives and we really want to be more fulfilled and live better lives than what we have, but we’ve really go to look at what’s going on beneath. You’re taking people on that journey and it definitely is a journey. The whole central premise of the book is a journey and it will be painful at times, but it’s really worth it at the end.
Katie
Yeah, is it. I think it’s okay though for it to be, uniquely, long. An ideal self-help book should be 175-pages and it should be brief and you move quickly and you focus on the solutions and, for me, it was like: ‘Well, let’s see. Half the book is going to be about why we’re suffering…” Not that it’s half the book, but, you know the first part of the book… the first journey in we’re going to spend a long time understanding how the reader got to this place of hurting. You know… what happened? Why are you at a place where you’re opening up a book for support? What happened for you to get to this place? Because I think if we don’t understand how we’ve fallen down into this hole. You know, we keep tripping and falling into this hole… it’s absolutely necessary to understand how big is that hole? Where did I fall? Where did I trip? If we were to keep getting stuck in a place, then you crawl out of it, then that’s fine. But do you have a deeper understanding of why you end up there? Because, if not, you might end up there again. And again. And again. You need to take the time to really be present and understand what happened. Why does this keeping happening? Why am I here in this place of struggle and feeling powerless and… all of those feelings of shame, grieving, and loss. I think it’s 421-pages.
Ameesha
Shall I check?
Katie
Yeah, will you check?
Ameesha
Just about 400-pages. It’s funny because I’m normally the first person to say people don’t like long books anymore. Try to keep it short and snappy and actually, as soon as I read this… and I think we talked really early on about… should it be shorter? Should it be broken down as a couple of books? But as soon as I read that first draft, no. This is the length it needs to be. And actually that’s what I say about word counts. Always, a book should be as long as it needs to be. Sometimes that means shorter and sometimes that means longer. Even if that means you break your genre standards, like you said, self-help books are typically 200-pages long… the point is that you’re really trying to help people on that deeper level. You can’t do that in 200-pages so you definitely shouldn’t stick with genre standards that don’t work for you. I think understanding where you need to break those boundaries and just do what works for your book.
Katie
Yeah, I think you’re right. And I so appreciate that about you. I mean, you were such a big part of this… you understanding it. If you were attached to the way that it should be, if you felt, ‘Well, it’s too long. Let’s divide it into two books.’ That is, at first glance, it does feel like two parts of a journey. A two-part series. Then, you being able to go in and understand it and recognise the importance of those being part of the whole journey… that it’s not the journey of suffering and then the journey of healing… that it’s all connected. That our healing recquires the suffering. That it’s all part of this necessary experience. That we can hold it together and not divide that and not feel like, ‘Oh, is this suffering a part of me that needs to be discarded? Is this productive and good part of me that’s healing… it’s all part of the same experience and it’s all equal and it all is part of the journey of life… of feeling… it’s all necessary. So, I appreciate you being a support in that and recognising, ‘You know what? It’s just a book. It’s a long journey.’ I think I recall you and I also having this realisation and shared understanding that some people are looking for a deep journey. Some people like a lot of short self-help books, and have been comforted and soothed and shown a new perspective but they’re still tripping and falling into the same places. To see a big book and say, ‘Alright, I’m signing up for this. This one looks like it’s going to go deep because it’s not just looking at the surface. Here we go.’ You know, I think it does speak to certain people and it’s seen as a positive thing. You know they may aesthetically see that with their eyes it’s not medically trying to cheer me up. This is going to hold my hand and take me in and make help me understand why, why am I feeling the way I feel?
Ameesha
Yeah, I actually think it’s the closest thing to working with a therapist that isn’t actually a therapist. And not everyone can afford a therapist, or spend hundreds doing that so I think that for people who do really want that help it’s such a good place to start. And also, you have your book course that runs alongside it.
Katie
Yeah, that sprung out of nowhere. But I would say over the past few years of you and I editing this, it’s almost as if it’s underearthing itself. You know, this body of work is coming through me and it’s a lot of insights, a lot of research, and personal understanding as I dissected addiction. So, it’s a lot of my knowledge and awareness and yet, in some vine and unknown sacred, mysterious way there is also a lot of really powerful insight that I would say came through me. It’s such a big body of work and as we were working on it, as we were editing it and revealing it has a map. You know, there’s a diagram and we go a very clear path of suffering. And things kept revealing themselves as if I was getting to understand this. And it’s circular… Victor who was a friend of mine who helped do some editing, he said, ‘Well, you are basically taking people on a well-manicured trail of the hero’s journey. You know, you’re doing the hero’s journey and bringing the reader back to themselves.’ And it is. I think the archetypal pathway that takes us away from ourselves and our suffering and then back. As far as the course… the thought was the do the course in spring. Maybe take the winter off after years of working on this book and release it, then breathe and enough people had written me within in the month of having released it asking if i’m going to do a bookclub or if I can accompany them in some way because it is such a deep journey and perhaps they were intimidated. So, I said, ‘Yeah, let’s do a bookclub. That sounds great!’ Actually, you know what, I should do the audio. I should make an audio available for each chapter. And I’m working on a workbook, I’ll show you the PDF for the workbook available. While we’re on it, I’m a musician as well. Let’s do inspirational songs for each chapter and before you know it, I’ve launched this course. And I don’t know how it happened basically. But we’ve had 65 people sign up and we’re doing it together. And it’s incredible. It’s like we’re all going to therapy together on this deep journey and I think that this is the beginning of this. I think we’re discovering new ways of healing. Therapy yes. That works one-on-one for the most part for people and self-help books, they work. It’s great. It’s helpful. Retreat settings work. What if it’s all merged together? What if it’s accessible worldwide and we can all take these healing journeys, experiences, connection, and community together?
Ameesha
Love it. You’ve kind-of mirrored the holistic vibe of the book in creating this holistic experience for people and I love how quickly you’ve put it together. You were like, ‘I’m going to make a book-club!’ Within a week you were like, ‘There’s 65 people signed up! Oh, by the way, I have this website and all this content!’ Like wow!
Katie
Yeah, I don’t know how it happened. Cutting up the time to do those–because I also do elder care and I have a lot of clients that I’m working with right now and doing one-on-one support–I don’t even know. I know this sounds fascinating and peculiar, but I don’t know. It’s as if time paused and this course just needed to happen. I don’t know where the time came from. It just–bloop! And of course, manifested in less than two weeks. It was just this full, composed piece. To me, that feels destined. It has a life of its own and I’m just showing up and letting it be what it needs to be. You know, I don’t feel like it’s me. I feel like it’s something bigger and I’m just saying yes.
Ameesha
Yeah. I think there’s also a lot said about capitalising on the moment and people are interested. Rather thank thinking, ‘Okay, I need a bit of a break. I’ve just spent two years writing a book.’ I think it’s really tempting to just go, ‘Oh well. I’ll wait and I’ll do it when I’m feeling better.” But actually once you’ve put a book out there, you don’t really know what opportunities will come of it and I think that’s the most interesting part of seeing what doors it opens and actually, if it opens a door to 65 people wanting to go through this experience with you, then yeah, why would you go, ‘Oh, I’m going to leave that until the Spring.’
Katie
That’s right. Yeah, it’s like surfing. There’s a wave. You wait too long, you lose it. You know, you wait too long and you don’t get to ride the wave. It is energy. It’s momentum. There’s energy building. It is like a natural experience. It is like a natural wave of the ocean where you’ve got to just be turned into where it’s building and then ride that. And I think it’s natural. You know, you just say what needs to be needed. People are saying, “I need support reading your book.” And I say, “Oh, okay! Great, well let me help you get your support and needs met. I’ll create a course and you’ll get your needs met. It wasn’t to make money. It wasn’t to promote my book, it was because people were reaching out for support and I genuinely cared about getting them the support they needed. And something really beautiful is happening right now. We’re five classes in and it’s so powerful to witness people finally lookking within themselves; deep childhood issues they may’ve put off for 60-years. You know, it’s really powerful.
Ameesha
Yeah. I think it’s absolutely amazing and you helping them to overcome those challenges in different ways… I just think it ‘s such a wonderful thing. I know you talked about it being a natural experience and that is awesome. But did you find anything particularly challenging? The writing or editing?
Katie
Oh, yes. I would say that… fully it felt like sacred experience. It felt gruelling. Gruelling wasn’t the word I’d go to about what it’s like to really write the book, but it is profoundly… how much work it is… To write this book, I’ll speak for myself and this particular book because I did have this perspective with a friend who had written a book. And she was like, “Really? It’s just the most fun experience I’ve ever had!” And I said, “What’s your book about?” And she said, “Oh, it’s a fantasy novel.” And I was like, “Oh, yeah, that sounds so fun. I look forward to maybe writing a fantasy novel.” This is like a self-help book, trying to help people understand trauma and suffering and the deepest stuff, so for me I had to focus on this for years. You know to really understand it… I had to immerse myself in suffering. And to do that from the perspective of the witness… to study… to observe… to be identifying with the suffering. I wouldn’t say I was suffering to write this book but I did need to understand and immerse myself in the content… in the subject matter which is trauma and pain and grief and shame and addiction and sadness. I feel like, in order to compensate for that, I just had to balance it out with being outside a lot and meditation and spending time in nature with the dogs, and to find a way to be in the space of getting my needs met is the answer because I feel like it could’ve swallowed me whole to go that deep. Continually, I had to be mindful of how I was balancing out my time. When I say gruelling, there’s no other thing I can compare it to and I really mean this. I don’t really know if I’d have been able to complete this had I not recovered from addiction because I feel that, what I learned in the process, for me. For any listeners who don’t know, I dealt with food addiction and bulimia for many years… food addiction for many years, but bulimia for longer than seventeen years and it was profoundly hard to get clean and sober. And for me… I feel that within that process I recognised that something needed to be done and I had a vision to achieve something that I couldn’t be and hadn’t experience before. You know, it would take a lot of work to get somewhere on the horizon in a place I couldn’t see, but I had to believe it was possible and keep tethering myself to this vision of the future. You know, this vision of something else and if I could just keep showing up day after day after day, just keep trying, just keep showing up, I would slowly get closer to that goal. And, really, the book… You know I’d never written a book, I didn’t even read books, I’d never had a strong relationship with them. It was this goal that was so far off into the horizon and it would take so much work to get there but I would have to keep showing up and believe that gradually I would get closer and closer to the goal. And I’d think of that. I’d think of recovery and writing a book in a very similar fashion. You are working towards something you can’t see. You are doing it because it feels like it’s the right thing to do and you make it no recognition. You know, if I hadn’t had this book a lot of people wouldn’t know my journey with recovery. And for a lot of us, when we recover, we don’t get any recognition. It’s just a silent accomplishment that happens within you. And it’s the same for a book. It’s a silent accomplishment where no one reads it and no one acknowledges it and you do it because it’s the right thing to do, you have to do it. You know. It was a lot of work to keep showing up… and worth it.
Ameesha
Yeah, it’s definitely worth it. I think that’s the thing. You have to go into it with no expectations. You know if you think, “Oh, this is going to be a million-copy bestseller.” And then it sells a hundred copies, you can end up disappointed. I think if you go into it as this, “I’m going to put it out into the world and I’m going to try my best to get people to read it and people to engage with it.” And then you just see what happens. I think that would be a lot more rewarding than when people go, even if it’s just one person to say, “Hey, this book really changed my life.”
Katie
Yeah, you’re right. I had the number 2 in my head the whole time. If 2 people read it, it’s gonna be worth it. For some reason, it was more than 1 person. But, really, if 2 people got something out of this, I’d be so happy. Anything above 2… I’m just really grateful.
Ameesha
I also love that you don’t read books and write books normally. I just think it’s awesome. I don’t really create courses, but I’m just going to put a course out there and a week later!
Katie
I know!
Ameesha
That, kind-of, speaks a lot to the whole flow thing. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the word… I don’t know – I can’t pronounce it properly… but there’s a book called Flow and he talks about how, when you’re in the zone, there’s this kind-of experience that’s almost channelled through you and I think that’s what you were talking about before but, you don’t necessarily need to be an expert in something because he talks about how, the kind of boundary what we’re building and comfortable with and then, the unknown. So it’s that area where we’ve got one foot in our comfort zone and one foot in our – into the challenge.
Katie
You’re right. Right now, I’m looking for a plant to show… I guess you could just think of a stem. I feel like the way the plant grows… there’s growth happening at the tip of of the plant, the leaves are growing out… there’s two plants in my office here and they grow into long vines and they’ve wrapped around the entire room. These plants are in these little pots and they have these arms, these stems, and their leaves are coming out. They’re growing out from the tip, they’re reaching out their arms. You can see where new leaves are sprouting from the end and something about that… when I check this plant, I thought, “That’s exactly what this feels like. It feels like it’s just growing. It’s just stemming.” And I’m part of this energy that’s moving within it, but it just keeps growing and these leave just keep appearing and I’m just like, “Oh, okay, here’s another leaf. Oh, here’s another leaf. Here’s another leaf.” And it’s part of this organic flow and it does feel like a flow. I was going to actually mention earlier when I said I don’t know how I just designed this whole website and course program in two weeks (and it works!) it was a very organic experience. To go from book to launch in two weeks with myself. I remember meeting a woman in a retreat I was leading in colorado… here name was Tara and she was telling me about the flow state and she was explaining that you can actually work with time. Like, actually can get into this place where you can move faster and she was an Olympic downhill skier and she was describing the flow as an Olympic downhill skier and she was saying, “You get into this place where you’re just moving an then, whoosh. You move in on time.” And she had figured out how to use that force through her craft; through skiing. I felt like that. I didn’t even know when time was happening, it just felt so natural. I wasn’t rushing. I didn’t feel stressed. It was just, “Okay, here it is.” But I think there is a way… there’s so much we don’t understand. Like you said: the unknown. That just sprouts up. I don’t know. I just said, “Yes.” and just did it. Somehow, time paused… whether I moved with time… I don’t know.
Ameesha
Yeah, I like that. I heard that recently from an ultra-runner who’d also experienced a similar thing. A kind-of feeling that time doens’t really exist on one of these runs. I think, you know, I think it’s quite difficult to experience unless you’re in that flow state. Aside from that did you have any moment where you thought, “Yes, this is it. This is awesome. Any particular moments that stand out for you?”
Katie
I would say that as I have so little experience with literature in general, I don’t know how this book is unique. That’s partially because we’re all different and I’m unique, but also because I don’t have a reference for how books should be written. So, I just wrote what seemed to be necessary and just wrote natural. One leaf after the next it just kept coming. So, the whole experience felt familiar. You know, I just felt, “Oh, okay. I’m going to focus on this. Oh, right, I’m doing this now. Oh, okay, I’ve got to keep writing. I feel like it was when the book was… think during our final editing… I mean I’ve been compiling material for four years and then I was deeply immersed in the computer for two and half years with writing, and then the editing, that was almost a year of editing… doing the developmental edit… working with you. There are different legs in the journey but I’d say it wasn;t until two weeks from the finish, when we were in that final bit. Actually, when we had our little problem child, chapter: Feel. For you and I, it was just this chapter, where it was like, “Do we need to move something out?” And we just kept trying to rearrange this part; rework this chapter. And we finally got to a place. I feel like it was around then that something started clicking, and I realised, “Oh, I’m nearly done with this project. Oh, I think I’m almost done. Oh, wow! I think this is a good book.” I literally hadn’t had that thought until, technically, then like a few months ago when I realised, “Oh, this this great. I think I’m going to get something out of this.” Because I was just dying to let out what was trying to come through. And I didn’t allow myself to get caught up in how it would be perceived and whether it would be successful and if people liked it or didn’t like it. All of that felt like it was leading me astray, and I would be focusing in the wrong area. My work is to get the book out and then, how it’s perceived is not me. It’s not me. It’s not my work. I didn’t even think about it. I don’t need to think about it. So, it’s not whether what it does or doesn’t do. My one job is to just write the book. And I just need to focus on that and then I can pass it on. But that, I would say that was a moment of relief. A relief of, “Wow, I don’t have to be up every night… writing and contemplating day-after-day for months and years. I think it’s out now. The message is out.” And I think, also, there was this sense of relief that felt like a moment as we were getting to the very final editing before going into layout… I just started to feel relief and yeah, it felt like the book was complete. The message has left me. So, if I were to die unexpectedly… This is actually a thought that I had, if I were to die I’d have offered so much support to people and I didn’t do it… I’d feel like, “Oh, okay. The book’s out. Rules are there. If people want them, they can have them. I can die and I don’t have to feel consumed that I should have, would have… Okay. Great. That feels like relief.”
Ameesha
I think we had a conversation like this at some point where I’d been working with a self-help author… he’d gone quiet in-between me giving him the round of feedback expecting to hear from him. And I just hadn’t heard from him. I had a really bad feeling. After sending him a bunch of messages and not hearing back, I thought it seemed really out-of-character for him. When I put his name into Google, memorials came up, he’d died really unexpectedly. And I just felt so awful for him that he’d had this dream to write this book and he’d finally quit his 9-5 job and he’d gone out to be a freelance consultant and he was writing this book and I just felt, “No, this doesn’t seem right that he’s put all this effort into this book.” So, I actually reached out to his family through this memorial page and said, “Look, I don’t know whether you guys know, but he was writing a book. I have the draft of it. Do you want me to finish it the way I discussed with him and basically publish it for him, because that’s what he would’ve wanted and maybe donate the money to a charity he supported.” So, we actually did that and it was really nice for me to feel like… I’m so glad he sent that book to me because otherwise he might’ve died without that book ever being out there in the world.” Maybe I should have an agreement in place with authors, just on the off-chance that something happens in this process. Do you want to me to make sure this book is out there in the world? Is it such an important thing that somebody knows your wishes for your book if anything happens. It probably is something that’s a bit specific to me because I don’t know any editors this has happened to other than me.
Katie
Well, that’s also what makes you so special, Ameesha. I was following my intuition for a lot of this. Thank you so much for that story. You have shared that with me before and it is so heartbreaking and heartwarmingly beautiful. That I think that is part of the work. If you were to be speaking directly to someone who was working on a book and who relates to my experience and whose seeking any type of advice or council, I would say, “Your team is everything. You’ve got to work with the right team; the right editors because… not just for the reason of them understanding the content, being able to help your articulate, but there’s something deeper going on. There’s a connection.” And I felt like you were supposed to be the editor for this book. Just… I sought you out and I thought, “Nope! She’s the editor. She’s the one who’s supposed to work on this book.” And it’s a partnership just like any other relationship. A connection. A friendship or relationship. You work together. There’s a synergy. A deep, deep trust that needs to be felt and experience in order for the author to speak their truth… to open up and not take things personally. To be together on the mission where it was my mission but now it’s our mission. Now we have the duty of getting this message out there. I felt that synergy with you… I would consider myself a pretty spiritual person. I wouldn’t categorise you topically as a spiritual person, but you have an assonce, a nature about you. It’s who you are that is so evident and so clear… your sense of integrity, dear, and compassion and I could just feel that. I felt a deep safety and trust in you as the editor because I felt the message wouldn’t be diluted. You know, here I am channelling this message to come through to help people with the deepest hardest intention to help people, and to feel that’s also part of why you do what you do. Yes, it’s a business and you have The Book Shelf. You know, it’s something bigger and it pays the bills, but there is this deeper pulse or utilising your tools and energy and knowledge to try and help get messages out in the world. I knew that and I could feel that in you. I trusted your integrity and I did feel, working with you, that if something were to happen you would’ve understood it. In addition to Nerma who is the developmental editor, the fact that we all are of Indian descent, I felt that it was anothe beautiful quality that we shared. That it was, I think, an interesting opportunity acknowledge you. Also say, this synergy you have from your editor, from what I have gained, even though this is the only book I’ve ever written, I could easily have seen myself… If I hadn’t chosen you to work with… I would’ve probably changed editors until I found the right one because it is a feeling. A feeling of trust. A feeling on unity; of being on the same team like now we have a mission to get this message out there.
Ameesha
I completely agree with you and also, yeah, thank you for the lovely words. It’s always nice to know that an author enjoys working with me. It’s actually really cool because I’ve ended up being friends with so many authors that I’ve worked with, including you. I think a lot about the fact that you’re very like-minded and I think what often happens with editors is they see people who have similar values and missions to them and vice versa. I think an author should pick an editor who has that same mission as them and who really cares about the book, not just about the pay cheque or about having another book to add to their portfolio. One of the things that I say to authors all the time is they have to find the right editor for you. It’s not about who’s the cheapest or who’s available to start tomorrow or who lives nearby. Your editor might be on the other side of the world. You might never meet them in person. And you might have to wait three months until they’re ready to work with you, but once you find that connection and that rapport with the editor, that’s what’s important. It’s also why I have a lot of conversations with an author before working with them because you can’t figure out from a quick email back-and-forth whether you’re the right fit. And, actually, you’re going to be working with that person for months, maybe years. So, it’s really important to make sure you have the right connection. You know, you don’t just talk about the book. You chat about life and I think it’s really important for the editor to understand what is the author’s dream and goal for this book and what’s their lifestyle like? How much input do they want from you? All of those factors. It’s not quick or easy to necessarily to get them in but it is so important to find the right person for you. I’m really glad that we found each other. That you found me.
Katie
Yeah. There was just no question. Intuition. I think I was thinking online to find the right editor and it was just the way you had described yourself. I tend to pay attention to details and study human behaviour and fascinated by the ways of the ego. So, these are all areas that I lean in deeply and study. It’s important for me to understand someone’s integrity and I could feel in the way that you described why you do what you do, I could feel the importance of potential. Business didn’t come first because you believe in what you’re doing and you believe in this sacred, ancient art of spreading knowledge and awareness and insight and thought through pages, through words. It’s this ancient craft. I could feel your integrity and that was somebody I wanted to work with. For me, I’m not trying to launch a business. I don’t need to have a bunch of followers or be this bestselling author. I really just want to help people and I want to do what I can to support people in the same way that you so beautifully continued his work; this man who passed away and to write the family and say, “Listen, I just finished this. It’s his message to the world and then, you guys can publish it.” I think… I don’t know if people have been in that situation and if they have, I can’t imagine the small percentage of people that would’ve taken the action the way that you did to complete it. You know? To do that without getting paid to say, just because it’s the right thing to do. That’s why – that essence of you is why I wanted to work with you. You know? That is it. Having known that story, I could feel it. You know? I thin kthat’s another thing, as far as this interview, being on The Book Shelf podcast I thin kit’s really important to have trust that not everyone in the world of literature is going to beat you down. I think a lot of people are intimidated to work with an editor. I have multiple friends who have books they’re writing and they’re saying, “Oh my goodness! Get your editors! Find the right editors! It’s so great. It’s going to take your book to the next level! It’s so good to have a teammate! Get a teammate!” And they’re intimidated because we have been traumatised in school and flunked and had bad grades and had that pen strike our pages and tell us what we did wrong. We’re all so hurt from having done so much wrong throughout our lives that we’re scared and I think it’s important to believe that… not all self-help authors are there to make a business for themselves and not all editors are there because it’s paying the bills. There are good people. Those good people can find one another and bring more goodness to the world.
Ameesha
Yeah, I think that’s such a good point. One of the questions I get asked most often is: “Will my editor steal my manuscript? Honestly, you wouldn’t believe the amount of times I’ve been asked that and every time I’m asked that I’m like, “No! An editor is never going to steal your manuscript. They’re there to make the book the best is can possibly be. To help you get it out there into the world and in the best shape it can be in.” People are genuinely scared that this will happen. That they’ll send a book off to a publisher, an agent, or a proofreader and it will be stolen and published under someone else’s name. People are really scared of this so I spend so much time trying to alleviate people’s concerns there that an editor would never do that. There are, obviously, dishonest people in every industry, but the role of the editor is to help the author in any way that they can. There are different types of editors. I would say that having that trust is absolutely vital. As you said, being confident that your editor is really there to help you and support you is definitely never going to go and put your manuscript online under their own name.
Katie
No. I think that says a lot. I’m shocked that is fascinating and very intriguing and common as you say for that concern to come forward and for people to say, “I don’t want to give it away because someone will take it.” To me, and the work that I do, that sounds like some unresolved trauma of people feeling like something is being taken from them, something beautiful that means so much. They’re afraid of losing something that is precious and valuable and it sounds like, I hope, they’re able to heal from that. To realise, wait, you have everything. It’s all in your name. You can prove this in court if you have to. This book; you’re protected if you’re concerned and worried and that scarcity isn’t going to be helping you find the right people. It’s not helping this abundant frequency of helping you getting your work out there. That scarcity is potentially going to be holding you back from moving forward and opening your palm where you’re holding onto something and let it go. There has to be a letting go. I think as an author, you have to let go. Unless you wrote it for you and you really want to keep it in your office and call upon it when you need a reminder of the insights you’ve previously accessed, but for the most part, it’s not about you. It’s about everyone else and in order to do that, you have to let it go. You have to welcome support and bring in the midwives, and whoever else, to let it out!
Ameesha
Midwife!
Katie
Yeah! You can’t hold onto it forever. You’ve got to let it go and try to understand there’s a bigger organic process that will take the lead and you get to have more support. It’s only gonna help it to work with an editor. When you find the right one. If you haven’t found the right one, then it’s like editing music or finding a producer for your songs. You do want to find the right producer, you do want to find the right engineeer and the right people to work with. Otherwise, it could have a completely different sound and I would say it’s a valid fear. A concern to be discerning about who you work with. Yeah, I think it’s absolutely necessary to have the editing team-mates.
Ameesha
Or as you said, your editor book-midwife! You said something there that I find is absolutely vital. But it’s not about you. I think, as an author, it’s easy to get drawn into that, “It’s all about me.” vibe because you’re the one that’s writing it. And you’re the vessel for it. But, actually, so much of it is about the reader. What do they need? How can you help them? How can you best-serve them? And, you know, I work with a lot of different authors and most of them come into it with the vibe, “I truly want to help readers and this book is my way of reaching more people and having that positive impact on the world and truly making a difference.” But, occasionally, there are some where it’s about them and their ego, and, “I want to tell my story because I want people to know who I am.” And, personally, that’s not my kind-of vibe. I don’t think they’re necessarily the best reasons to write a book. It’s a reason, but you can do a lot more if you put the reader first and prioritise them. I think that’s quite a difficult thing for authors to get past. A necessary element involved in writing a book, because as an individual, putting your story out there, but I think it can be so much more effective if you realise it’s not about you. It’s about the reader.
Katie
Absolutely, because it’s, I imagine, you know that is the intention which is that you’re creating a body of work to take someone else on a journey. You know, you’re creating a vehicle and someone else is going to sit down and just… you’re just mapping out the way so the reader knows which way they’re going and you’re just making sure that they’re comfortable. You know, your job is to just make sure it works. To make sure they have all their needs met. That they’re able to get to the destination securely and distinctively. But I think you’re not vehicle. It’s not about us as authors. I think if its not about the reader, then who is it for? It really is genuinely for you. Do you need to share this book or is it part of your healing process? Let it be. You just need a healing process.
Ameesha
Yeah. I think that’s absolutely fine as well, but then you won’t necessarily need an editor to help you. You know, with the challenges of it so, on that note, do you think you’ll write more books?
Katie
Yeah, definitely.
Ameesha
Has the writing bug got you?
Katie
It’s got me! It dug in deep. I feel like I keep getting these little wisps, almost little insights, little premonitions of future books. I think, originally, I wanted to write this book. It was for everyone. I didn’t specifically want it to be for any one person dealing with this or an element of suffering. I wanted it to be a book anyone could read it just be about the basics of trauma and need and protection and these different places we go and getting their needs met and connections and comfort, etc. However, I do have a lot of experience with eating disorders and bulimia. So, the thought was to create. This book was the encyclopedic version and then, you and I are working on the pocket guide so more condensed: here’s just a breakdown of the cycle of the heart. Then the Empowered Heart one is to understand how it works, now The Empowered Heart of Healing from Bulimia. The Empowered Heart for Teens. I started working with a handful of 12-year-olds strangely. I just have a lot of people reaching out to me with their 12-year-olds. So that, okay, I have preteens and teens. There’s a need for this. There’s a need to provide tools and support and there’s areas that I would love to delve more deeply in, you know. I think, I would like to write a book just specifically about some of the elements… that it’s more bookish on the healing aspect because if they got their needs met… if they want to learn how they got there now the book’s out. And that part of me that would like to write some uplifting, shorter–
Ameesha
Fantasy fiction!
Katie
Fantasy fiction! Yeah, actually, I’d like to do that too. That would be a lot of fun.
Ameesha
I definitely think you should write fiction. I can totally imagine a whole series of books. I think we talked before about authors who write a series. There’s a book called, The Rules of Life by a guy called Richard Templar who wrote The Rules of Life, The Rules of People, The Rules of Management and every single book is the same but a different colour. The same premise but for specific people and I think that can work so well.
Katie
Yeah. I think so, too. I think it’s just the beginning. In a way, I didn’t really work backwards in the way that some authors writer shorter books and then they write a really big book that kind-of sums up what it’s all about, but I think for me, I did this intentionally. I had some advice to just focus on bulimia. I said, “No. I don’t think that’s wise. I think there’s a bigger message. It’s such a bigger body of tools and support. I just want to get that out and then I can break it off into the smaller stems. You know? Focus on them.” So, yeah, I think the other little sprouts of leaves are revealing themselves.
Ameesha
Yeah and there’s so much to come for The Empowered Heart.
Katie
Yeah, exactly.
Ameesha
The good news is when you find an editor, you find an editor for life.
Katie
That’s exactly what I was going to say! I was like, “And the good news is, you are my editor! And so we have a lot of work together ahead of us.”
Ameesha
We do. Definitely.
Katie
It’s true. I feel an air of confidence. I have my teammate and if I have this idea like, “Oh my goodness, what about this?” I feel like I can just text you and give you a voice memo if the inspiration comes through and I don’t feel alone. You know, I think a lot of people, especially authors feel alone. It doesn’t have to be that way. Find your team. Find some teammates and do it together. You still get to be the author, it’s still your story; your body of work and it will feel so much better and you’ll feel so much more productive if you’re not doing to it alone. You have to have that synergy with someone; the way I feel with you. You can find someone who just, “Okay, this is my editor. What do I do next?”
Ameesha
Yeah. I totally agree. I always say it’s cool with self-publishing, but it doesn’t mean you have to do it yourself. I think it’s such a big misconception that self-publishing means you’ve got go it alone and that you absolutely don’t. I think it’s so much better if you can find a team of people you trust. Not just editors, but also designers. I mean the designer is absolutely amazing. She so got your vision and the map and the illustrations and everything. When the book arrived, I don’t know if you can see, but it’s shiny!
Katie
There it is!
Ameesha
It’s got the raised texture on the book. I think all of that is so important. It’s not just about someone helping you with the words and the message but it’s also making sure your vision of what the inside of the book will look like… making sure that comes across… you front cover and all those all aspects of how it looks and feels… making sure you find the right team for that as well.
Katie
Yeah, you’re right. It’s an experience. It’s a production. It’s clearly a production like producing an event or producing music, producing anything. It’s a production. And it’s people who’ve spent decades perfecting their craft. You know, just like any other production, you wouldn’t hire someone who’s doing the bookkeeping to be the designer and if you’re not a designer yourself, work with a designer. Work with professionals. Work with people who have spent their lives gaining skills and perfecting their craft and bring them into your circle, bring them into your team. And I think you’re right, when someone self-publishes, I think there’s a misconception that it’s, “Oh, you didn’t get a publisher? Oh, you had to do it yourself? You didn’t get signed? Oh, okay. It’s still good.” No. That’s a very conscious decision. I didn’t send it to anybody. I didn’t send my manuscript out because I wanted it to be done organically with a group of people I trusted. I trusted everyone’s intentions and their skills and I felt like I’d self-published this with full intention. I would’ve wanted that probably if I had offers, I would’ve still wanted to do this.
Ameesha
Of course, because if you send it off to a publisher. You don’t get to choose. You relinquish so much control. You don’t get to pick your editor or designer. You might not get to choose your own cover. It’s like people did have this perception. It’s only up to a couple of years ago that self-publishing was the poor man’s publishing. It’s like you couldn’t get a publisher. Whereas now, almost all the authors I work with, they didn’t even consider trying to get a publisher. They didn’t want that. Self-publishing is a choice. It means you get to retain control over your book. You can choose your team. You get to keep most of your royalties. You can publish under your own timeline and there’s so much more control over the process. Who’d not want that? I guess the main thing is that people want to see their book in a bookshop and that’s very different as a self-published author. That’s probably like the hack in the industry at the moment, but all the other benefits, it just seems like a no-brainer to a lot of authors to just self-publish straight off as their first choice.
Katie
Yeah, I think that the quality is compromised. Also, if you’re a self-help author like in this situation, the intention is everything. The design to get this body of work may be longer than other books and may be be unique and may not fit into all the other boxes and that’s a good thing. However, we don’t know that a major publisher would see that as a good thing because it’s likely they would be catering to what’s trending and what’s popular and you’re also working with the publisher’s intentions which, very likely, have to do with making money.
Ameesha
Yeah, because that’s what publishers are driven by realistically. It’s a business. So, it is. It’s all about how they can make money and it’s understandable. It costs a lot to produce a book and they want to see a return on their investment, but it does mean authors who are writing something a bit more unusual or unique… the likelihood is that they won’t be able to get a publishing deal or publisher because the publisher will see that as too much of a risk and no guaranteed audience.
Katie
Yes, that’s exactly right. And so you have to go deeper inside your own sense of integrity and say, “Do I want this to suddenly jump onto the train of decisions being made that are not driven by the intention of helping people, but moreso… how can we sell as many copies as possible?” Which, I understand, the more copies sold, it means the more people have access to reading it. However, as we started off this call, a lot of times we’re not going deep enough. We’re skimming the surface. We want to talk about this, but we don’t necessarily want to talk about deaht. Let’s not go too deep. Let’s stay over here and that’s a little too much, like to me that’s part of the problem. Like, so much is diluted and staying on the surface where it’s more comfortable and I feel like even the term ‘polished’ I feel like when you go on a major route, they want to keep things polished and comfortable and smooth and quick and easy and that, literally, is the opposite of this book. You know, it’s not quick. It’s not easy. It’s not shiny. It’s deep and it’s heartfelt and it’s honest and it’s really meaningful. And I felt somewhat protective of this body of work. So, numerous friends have contacts to major publishers and I declined even sending it there, and it wasn’t because of insecurity, it was because I said, “No, I feel really protective about doing this properly. I know exactly who’s editing it, who’s designing it, and I know each of the team. I know their intentions align with my own so I feel really good about this.” And, hopefully later down the road, a publisher realises, “Oh, this is a great body of work. Can we release a copy?” Yeah! We can cross that bridge later. But right now, I want to do the message justice; make it as clear, pure, and concentrated as possible.
Ameesha
I agree. I think that’s definitely the right choice for you. There’s so much information out there about self-publishing’s better or traditional publishing is better. But, ultimately, it comes down to what’s right for each other and there’s pros and cons of both. There’s pros and cons of all the types of publishing. Maybe less-so for vanity publishing, as there’s not many pros for that. But generally, each author must weigh-up what’s right for them. Do they want to try and get a publishing deal? Or they want to self-publish. And, yeah, I think to say you change your mind further down the line and a publisher approaches you and you sell millions of copies as a self-published author, what’s to say you can’t have a traditional publisher further down the line? I think it’s more about figuring out what’s the right path for you? Which path matches your dream for the book?
Katie
Exactly, yeah. Following your intuition and also looking at that this may not be your only book and it may be different in one year. It may grow and change and you will as well. You’ll have other books and other opportunities to just do what feels right and in the moment. If there is a part of you out there who’s getting anything from this conversation, and you feel that desire to see your book on a big shelf… in the U.S. we have Barnes and Noble which sells books which is slowly being replaced by online bookstores. So, I think this is an old dream to have it on a bookshelf – sadly. There may be some ego left and that’s something to confront within yourself. If you need to see your name on the shelf, and you prioritise that as opposed to keeping your message really authentic by working with people you really trust who share the same level of integrity. That may be an opportunity to ask yourself some questions.
Ameesha
Yeah, I think that’s a really interesting point.
Katie
Maybe that’s an old dream. Sometimes dreams inspire and they change and they grow. Maybe that dream is going to shift and transition into something else. To be attached to seeing your name and then, also hold yourself in such a vulnerable place of: only then will I consider myself having succeeded. That’s a lot of pressure. And also shame to put on your shoulders and it’s a very narrow life to force yourself to walk down. That unless I sell millions of books or unless I’m on this book deal and I become a best-selling author, I’ve not succeeded. Really, question whether that is serving you or not because if that is your story and you’re sticking to it. I don’t know if that will necessarily lead you to happiness. You know, that sounds like it’ll lead you to having a stronger ego. And I don’t know if that will genuinely get your needs met or fulfillment. I don’t know.
Ameesha
Yeah, I think you’ve succeeded if you just get the book out there and you wanted it out there. And as you say if two people read it and say that it helped them, then that’s a success.
Katie
Yeah. Then you’ve done something good to help the world and that’s something that should feel really good.
Ameesha
I think that’s the moment important thing. For me, as an editor and for you, as an author. It’s all about how can we have an impact on the world. How cna we make it a better place and that thing of leaving the world better than when you joined it. For me, that’s what it’s all about. I think that’s what you want too.
Katie
Yeah, exactly.
Ameesha
Well, I guess we can wrap up there. Before we go, I just want to say, thank you for letting use your beautiful music for our podcast which people will hear at the beginning and the end.
Katie
Yay! Absolutely! You can use any of the music. You just have a whole catalogue to work with.
Ameesha
And people should go, listen to it. Go find Katie on Spotify, Apple Music!
Katie
Yep. You can find books. You can find music. You find whatever.
Ameesha
Soon: everything!
Katie
Yeah! Everything! Who knows what I’m going to make. Oh, I have my own podcast. Who knows what else is going to be up there?
Ameesha
You’ll find the empowered heart everywhere.
Katie
Yep, it’s everywhere.
Ameesha
Ah, well, thank you so much for speaking, Katie. It’s been really lovely to chat to you.
Katie
Yeah, thank you so much. It was so nice. I kept catching myself thinking, “Oh, yeah, this is being recorded!” It’s just the two of us hanging out.
Ameesha
On the other side of the world.
Katie
On the other side of the world!
Ameesha
Here it’s quarter-to-six in the evening. And for you, it’s morning, right?
Katie
Yep. It’s 10:15. Just getting started.
Ameesha
Ah, well, I hope you have a wonderful day and thank you for speaking.
Katie
Thank you so much!
Ameesha
We can’t wait for you to join us as we talk more about writing, publishing, and self-improvement on this podcast. And we’d love to hear from you! What tips would you find useful? What questions do you need answered?
You can find us on our website, Instagram, TikTok, and Twitter @thebookshelf.ltd. Send us your questions via social media! We’d love to hear from you.
The music you hear in this episode is ‘Set Free’ by Katie Gray which you can find on Apple Music and Spotify.
In the next chapter, we’ll be speaking to Mark Lanyon author of Who Stole Grandma? Mark raised an incredible £4,500 for the Parkinsons UK book campaign and became an Amazon bestseller in six categories so stay tuned to find out how he did it.
Thanks for listening to the Better Shelves podcast, we’ll see you in the next chapter!