In this “cover-to-cover” interview, book coach Ameesha Green and author Jym Brown discuss Clever Enough to Be Stupid, reviving the old sentiments of wisdom and intellectual humility. It’s not about how much you know but rather the realisation that you don’t know much at all.
Join book coach Ameesha Green and author Jym Brown as they discuss human thinking and the potential for intellectual humility through the lens of philosophy and psychology.
Jym Brown is an author, TEDx speaker, lecturer, and consultant who has worked with professional sports clubs, business leaders, and hundreds of higher education students to improve critical thinking and improve performance. His current book Clever Enough to Be Stupid considers how human beings develop knowledge and the ways we might be wrong. It also explores public thinking, the dangers of social media, and emotional rhetoric, and it will certainly get you thinking.
Turn the page on this podcast to experience Jym’s self-publishing journey with tips on working with an editor and doing ego-free marketing.
Turn the page (the time-stamp!)
[00:35] Can you tell us a little bit about the book? What inspired you to write it?
[02:32] Intellectual humility
[08:50] The importance of critical thinking
[11:00] Hyper-fixations on what you can do rather than what you should do
[12:30] Social media propaganda
[13:02] Do you have any future book plans?
[16:15] Editing at The Book Shelf
[20:18] How long did it take you to write and design the book?
[24:53] The importance of an editor
[31:00] What skill has been the most important on this writing journey?
[40:01] What tips can you provide to writers?
Buy the book: Clever Enough to be Stupid by Jym Brown
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TOPICS COVERED IN THIS EPISODE INCLUDE:
Book marketing
Intellectual humility
Social media
The ego
Emotional rhetoric
Critical thinking
Philosophy
Psychology
Book editors
Ameesha
Welcome to Better Shelves, a podcast from The Book Shelf Ltd. We help aspiring authors to create life-changing nonfiction books. We’re based in Birmingham, but we work with authors across the globe and our mission is to make the world a better place through books.
Hi Jym, thanks for joining us on the Better Shelves Podcast!
Jym
Good afternoon. Thank you ever so much for having me.
Ameesha
Awesome. Yeah. So, first thing, congratulations on your recent book; your second book, ‘Clever Enough to be Stupid.’ Can you tell us a little bit about it? What inspired you to write it?
Jym
Yeah. Well, thank you, first of all. Frustration was the reason I wrote it, I think. I actually started writing it after I’d given you my revamped draft of my first book. It was born of frustration, really, because I, generally speaking, I tend to come across or seem to come across this never-ending stream of people that seem so convinced that they know what they’re talking about. And invariably I tend to find that most people don’t know what they’re talking about so that was kind of the imputace to write this book: Clever Enough to Be Stupid.
Ameesha
Yeah, that sounds… that’s obviously something you’ve probably encountered a lot in your area of work as well.
Jym
Yeah. Yeah, I suppose, academic– for anyone listening or being in the academic field so to speak–a lecturer across a couple of different disciplines… Yeah, you tend to, it can almost be a contest when it comes to academia. Who knows more than who? Whose written this paper? Or that paper? Yeah, just generally, I work with a fair amount of coaches and teachers and such. It’s this spondiferous nature people have where they just have such a great degree of confidence in their assertions and what they believe to be the case–to be true or to be what should happen and what people should do. When really if you interrogate that just a little bit you find that, actually, they don’t know a huge amount about the topic. They’re not as well-read as they might be portraying. So, that was the whole remit for the book in the first place.
Ameesha
Yeah, I think it’s really interesting actually. In today’s society, you talk a lot about how people seem to be rewarded for having really strong opinions rather than sitting on the fence. Social media buys into that. On Twitter, you’ve got 180 characters or something. So actually, the more forceful you are with your opinions and the more fixed on your ideas, the easier it is to put your opinions out on social media.
Jym
Yeah, I think that’s a really good point. You can argue that, perhaps, we are initiating that change towards people being a bit more sure of themselves. Maybe they’re not more sure of themselves but we’re being conditioned into a way of expressing ourselves–potentially. It’s just one of things I talk about in one of the chapters. That shows how I think of the book: “one of the chapters.” It’s this idea of: you’re almost looked upon in a disparaging way by saying that you haven’t committed yourself to one belief or another. Like if you sit there and think: “well actually I’m not to sure about this. I’m somewhere inbetween.” You’re a fence-sitter, and therefore you can’t be trusted. There’s this whole idea of you trust people more if they stick to their guns. I’ve always struggled with that mentality because, if you stick to your guns… why it’s seen as an admirable trait… I don’t know. You might be wrong. If you stick to your guns being wrong, it’s the equivalent of someone saying: “2+2=5” and then you say:
“Well, actually it’s 4.”
And then, they say: “no, I’m sticking to my guns. It’s 5.”
It’s ridiculous. When you put it that way people tend to see it, but when you put it another way – whether it be political affiliation or what the government should do about COVID or whatever the topic might be – somehow sticking to your guns is an admirable trait. I’ve never really understood that.
Ameesha
Yeah, same here. I think we talked a lot, haven’t we, about being able to sit on the fence and say: “I don’t know. I don’t know enough about the topic to weigh in.” I don't know enough about this topic to weigh in or just admitting that you don't have an opinion. I feel like everyone these days has an opinion on everything and if you don’t have an opinion, then when you don’t, they’re like: “Oh, why don’t you have an opinion on that?”
Jym
Having an opinion… like everyone these days has an opinion on everything. When you don't say to why don't you have an opinion or that need to kind-of consider things as opinions, and again, it's another thing that I've read about in this book, but can you have discussions without it being exhibiting your beliefs for your opinions to try to overcome other peoples. You know that the idea about the Ancient Greek dialectics where you have discussions to explore a topic further to work to think something through. I think is the more literal definition of dialectic to think something through and get closer to the truth, whatever you thought might be different to what you thought previously as opposed to: “I'm just going to assert my opinions on things to try to win.” Which is what a debate normally is, so yeah, I'm much more in the dialectic-camp. However, I guess the problem with that is you need to be surrounded by people that are also willing to do the same. Again, hence why I wrote things the way I wrote it. I’m trying to encourage people to be a little less debate-oriented and a little more dialectic-oriented. Whether or not it’ll do anything, I don't know.
Ameesha
Well, it definitely worked for me I take more notice now of when I feel like: “Oh hang on am I entering into a debate here?” And especially on social media, I think it's really easy to get drawn into those kinds of debates and actually, everyone ends up annoyed it's not a positive experience is it?
Jym
Yeah. Well, it was a source of, suppose inspiration is the wrong word, here because it didn’t necessarily inspire me inspired me as a positive connotation. It inspired me in a negative way. The comment section takes any topical or consensus post and you’ve basically just got 10s of hundreds of comments of people are either side of the spectrum slandering one another and talking with such a high degree of confidence. I really struggle with that concept of how two people can view the same thing and be so convinced that the other person is wrong I don't seem to be able to look at themselves and then go hang on maybe it's not as cut and dry as this you know because everyone's got evidence for their perspective as well. So, yeah.
Ameesha
Yeah, it's so true actually, I think. When we were working on the book, I remember coming across the video and I think it was on the Dodo’s Instagram page, and it was someone rescuing a cat from a tree it was a video of this person like an arborist climbing this tree and people weighing in oh he should have done this and he should have done that and it was like I'm sorry are you people trained over it, do you know the best way to climb a 17-metre tree to rescue a cat? People were so angry about it.
Jym
Someone sent me a meme the other day. It was to the tune of: over the last year and a half being a COVID expert or a virologist or epidemiologist and now I'm an international relations expert because of the Ukraine–Russia conflict, but yeah. Immediately people can go from being an expert in something to an expert in something else. I’m sat there going: “I don’t really think I know anything so…” how am I surrounded by all of these experts?
Ameesha
Yeah, you’re clearly not spending your time wisely.
Jym
There's me thinking no I actually spend a great deal of time reading and trying to learn as much as possible but really I should just throw my assertions out willy-nilly in the comment sections and I would be much better off.
Ameesha
Yeah, I really hope that the book has a positive impact in that sense and even if it makes a few people question the strength of their assertions and how much they really know about the subject before they decide to weigh-in or shout at somebody on Twitter. I really hope it has a positive impact.
Jym
I hope so. The-but your message of intellectual humility – which is just to make people realise or question or have a little think about do I really know this? Do I really know what I'm talking about? Is this the real truth here? We can talk about our perception of objective reality or objective truth… maybe that's a conversation for a different day. Yeah, just to get people to question things. Maybe I should be a little more humble before I start telling the world how it should be.
Ameesha
Yeah, I think it's probably easier for us because we come from a philosophy background, and I certainly read philosophy books when I was a kid because my mom gave me philosophy books to read and I named all my teddies after philosophers because I was that weird kid. You know, you kind of grow up naturally questioning things and having that curiosity and not just thinking that you know everything, but philosophy isn't something that's taught in schools or maybe even until college and some people have never encountered it.
Jym
I was a bit late to the party. I didn't really start to digest philosophy until mid-20s, probably, but I would say I've always had an inquisitive and questioning mind. But it was for various reasons it wasn't channelled into the disciplines that I've channelled into now so I think you had a much better grounding in terms if you might. My mum wasn't giving me Socrates to read… I believe Socrates was one of your cuddly toys I remember you telling me before! So I didn't have that good ground, in that respect, but I think I've always been… not quite that way or I've always had that mentality, so to speak. But I think in schools people might argue they teach critical thinking and therefore that qualifies as, essentially, philosophy. I would question how well they actually teach critical thinking and particularly in the last five years or so in terms of some of the ‘philosophies’… dare I say in inverted commas… that are quite prevalent now. I think they’re probably the opposite of critical thinking but that's me being cynical.
Ameesha
No, I definitely remember being in school and thinking that we’re taught a certain way of viewing the world rather than it being more open-minded and observing and analysing. It’s a shame there isn’t more of that in schools. You know, I hope there will be in the future but I doubt we can influence that. Maybe that can be the next book.
Jym
Yeah, that’s a big part of things to come in the future. But I almost think that the direction society is going in and — I could be completely wrong here — I think philosophers are going to be — not qualifying myself as a philosopher which would be lovely — but I almost see it as an aspiration that I might never reach. I’m happy if that’s the case. But I think there’s going to be a great need for philosophers. I think people might see philosophers as them as this superfluous thing that we don’t need anymore, but I see with the advent of AI, the explosion of social media… various other really significant things… I think we’re probably in greater need of philosophers now than we have been since the enlightenment probably.
Ameesha
Yeah, I totally agree with you. I know when I graduated back in 2007… I started uni into 2004… I remember the lecturer saying: “Philosophy graduates have basically no chance of getting a job so if you want to leave feel free.” but, actually after I graduated, then there were articles coming out afterwards saying that companies like Goggle were hiring practical philosophers because the skills were so useful. I think you’re right there’s such a big area for applied ethics considerations — even for things like COVID, you needed philosophers in there to be weighing up how valuable the decisions they were making and I don’t think any of that really happened so I would like to see a bigger role for philosophers in the future.
Jym
It’s funny. I was watching Jurassic Park the other day, I love using movie references if you know, but there was one where Jeff Goldblum is talking to the park owner and he says something along the lines of: “You’re so transfixed by what you could do, you didn’t stop to think whether you should do it.” And I think with a lot of the things that we’re getting at the moment… this neglect of the other side of the coin. Social media, for example, do the costs outweigh the benefits of social media? Probably don’t know an answer to that yet. If we don’t ask the question, we’re never going to know. I think that’s where philosophy comes. It’s just asking questions. So, yeah, I’m quietly hopeful they’ll be a bit of a market for philosophy coming forward now there’s been a far bit of time.
Ameesha
Yeah. I think there’s something really interesting topics out there that need some philosophical consideration like the whole ‘Deep Fake’ video thing. You know, this is something that, potentially, really dangerous consequences but if they can make politicians look like they’re endorsing each other in videos then… what could they do if they decide they don’t like an individual? You know, it’s just like movies you watched in the 90s sort-of situation where The Nest with Sandra Bullock. It just makes me think of what could–actually–happen. I just think that is that the whole we can do it so we will do it rather than should we actually? Is this a good idea?
Jym
I think there’s too much thinking that gets ignored. If the concept is that you can slander people in that way and createsituations just because of digital manipulation, for example. That’s a scary concept. A really scary concept. You can only trust your eyes to a certain extent when that’s being chucked out frmo under you as well… you can barely trust your eyes at all now. The fact that propaganda can still exist in the 21st century… you just think: how is it any different from 100 years ago, 200 years ago? We’re supposed to be a more evolved species and yet, propaganda is still as rife as it ever has been.
Ameesha
Yes, very true. Well, at least there’s lots of material to be writing more books about.
Jym
If I get the time. Yes.
Ameesha
Have you got any plans for anymore books?
Jym
I do. Yes, so this newish book is the first of a 3-part series. I kind-of already planned it in my head and I’ve got a skeleton structure of each of those books, but it’s really coming to down to time. So, the whole idea was a series of nonfiction books isn’t very common, at least not that I’m aware. I think, people Nassim Taleb has written what he’s calls, I think it’s called his Incerto – his series of books. So, for me, I wanted to do a series because I just didn’t think that trying to do something in one book… there was no way I was going to get it covered or it would end up being some viable-esque, multiple volumed… I learnt a bit from my last one in that my last one was relatively chunky so I’ve had to learn a few lessons and well… perhaps I need to make things slightly more digestible you know? Bite-sized chunks. I just need to lay the philosophical groundwork in the first one and the second one I’m going to apply it to many conscientious and controversial topics as I can within that volume. Then, the third one will be a bit more of a ‘where do we go from here?’-type of approach. What I’m saying, I guess is, you might be looking at my shelves. It’s something akin to Yuval Noah Harari’s Sapiens and the 21 Lessons for the 21st Century – something akin to that.
Ameesha
Yeah and I think the idea of a nonfiction series is, actually, really interesting. If people like your books they’ll keep buying them and it’s a blessing for nonfiction authors. I think people have this idea that you write this one incredible books and that’s it and, actually, the reality is you don’t make a huge amount of money when you self-publish or even when you have a traditional publisher and it’s more about making this holistic author brand that involves various things like a podcast, speaking engagements, or consultancy. It’s not just about: write one book and hope to become a millionaire from it.
Jym
I get… the way I view it now is: would I still do this if no one ever bought a book? Now, granted that’s an oversimplification here, but yes I would. It’s just in me to want to write a book. So, a big part of it is legacy that I want to leave behind. Even if no one reads it I know that I’ve done it. But, secondly, like you’ve been saying there for self-published authors which is hilarious to consider myself now an author… it’s having multiple platforms work with each other in order to create closure, more success etc. etc. I would love to just be an author, but it’s not a very practical situation to aim for. So, yeah, I think having multiple strings to your bow only benefits you if you want to sell more than five copies to your mum, cousin, and friend down the street or whatever.
Ameesha
Yeah, have you found that side of things a challenge? Especially with self-publishing.
Jym
The biggest challenge. It may be the same for other people listening, but the promotion and marketing side is an absolute mountain to climb. It’s such a struggle. It’s the most off-putting and challenging part of the entire thing. The easy part is writing the book, especially when you’ve got a great editor. So, I think, granted, I’ve got no basis for comparison here, but I’m taking the the punch here and saying: you’re a fantastic editor. At least from my experience anyway.
Ameesha
Thank you.
Jym
Yeah, that side of the process is just… you feel so alone. I think that’s the probably way I put it. You feel like you’re trying to navigate this world of chaos and find a YouTube video here, a blog-article here and you combine all those things together and it really is… just however long you think it’s going to take… times it by five. You might be a bit closer to reality. It really is the biggest struggle.
Ameesha
Yeah, I think a lot of authors really underestimate the amount of effort or time or money that goes into the marketing. So, I think most people are aware that they need an editor or they need a designer but, actually, marketing it kind-of forgotten about. I think it’s the most difficult part of the process because most people don’t know that much about marketing but, also, we’re often not very good as writing about ourselves. So, pushing your book out there often doesn’t feel great.
Jym
At least, for me, anyway. It doesn’t feel like a very natural or organic-type of process. Particularly because, in my first book, I have written about concepts around psychology and the ego and how we pander to it at times. It might not necessarily be a good thing. And also the second book I’m talking about Intellectual Humility and not thinking you know more than you do… so then to go around and plaster my book everywhere and say: “Read my book because it’s amazing!” It feels so count-intuitive or contradictory so I really do have a big struggle… I mean this really seriously, with the whole push-pull of maintaining some degree of humility and promoting it enough to actually sell any. It’s a real struggle and I don’t think I’ve found that balance yet. I think I’m getting there, but then even to do it… the way I want to do it. It takes loads more work in order to make that happen. I could just turn a camera around and talk some nonsense down to my phone and plaster that everywhere but it doesn’t feel like it’s me or mention the messages I’m trying to portray.
Ameesha
Of course! And you don’t want it to feel disingenuous because one of the big things that people are buying into with nonfiction authors is your authenticity. And if it feels like your marketing messages are completely incongruent with the message you’re putting in your book then, that’s going to be a problem. But I think marketing is trial and error. And there are probably 50 or 100 ways you can market your book and it’s about just trying to handle all of them and figuring out which one of these works for you. And there’s no point doing it if it’s going to be something you really hate. If you don’t enjoy social media then… don’t think you’ve got to spend all your time on social media trying to promote your book because there are other methods.
Jym
I’ve read and taken part in loads of different communities and message boards and various other things about different ideas and a big one that people really push is a mailing list, but again, I think it’s managing expectations to say: what do you do in order to generate a a significant mailing list? That is a book’s worth of effort in its own right. If you just release a couple of blog posts and then you’ll get 5000 people subscribe to your mailing list it just doesn’t work that way. It’s more like: it’ll take you a year to write your book and it’ll take you a year to develop a fledgling mailing list so I think a big part of this experience is finding out where the goal posts are and managing expectations accordingly, but it’s a very tough lesson.
Ameesha
Yeah and I think marketing early is a really big part of it and a lot of people don’t start their marketing until either the point they’re ready to publish or afterwards and then it’s even more of a challenge
Jym
I give myself 2 or 3 months which people would say is half as what you need, but you’ve got to prioritise in some way shape or form and if you’re still focused on trying to write a decent book, you either delay your release date so that you can still get in that amount of promotion time or marketing time or you’re working on your book because you’re trying to get it finished and get it to a good standard and then, once you have got it to a good standard, there’s this urge in you to be like, “God I’ve been working on this for 18-months and I want to get it out.” But, yeah, it’s really difficult to manage that dynamic… very difficult.
Ameesha
Yeah, I mean, how long did it take you in total with the writing and the whole editing and design process?
Jym
About 15-16 months, I think. I benefitted from lockdownso I started writing…. I say, benefitted from lockdown, probably the only person who benefitted. But all of these authors out there who are getting time to write their book because they’ve been in lockdown… I started writing the second one while we were in the first lockdown so I had a real concrete chunk of time to get that moving. So, yeah, that for 17 months and that’s all the way through to hitting the publish button.
Ameesha
And was that shorter or longer than your first book?
Jym
Possibly similar. I had more time back then. I didn’t have quite as many things on my plate. So, the first one was probably the same. The writing process was probably a bit quicker for the first one, but the marketing and back-office stuff took a lot longer than the first one because I was learning it all the first time. Whereas, the second time round, you know, you’ve learned a few lessons from the previous one. There were various mistakes I made in the first one that, obviously, I won’t make again and some mistakes that kind-of hurt me, fairly significantly in terms of sales and reach and publicity and those sorts of things, but yeah, so relatively similar times for different reasons.
Ameesha
Yeah, I mean, the good thing is you do learn a lot by the second book and by the third book it’ll be easier and by the fifth book, hopefully you don’t need so much support. My aim is always to do myself out of the job by the time you get to your fifth book.
Jym
Is that the magic 5?
Ameesha
I think so.
Jym
Ah, right! I definitely felt for the second one, I was able to provide you with a much better quality product first time round. First submission. The first one… you had no real conception… you’ve read books, but it no way qualifies you to put some considered thought into structure and whatever else. An editor’s just going to provide so much more clarity. But once you’ve done that once or even twice, the version that you submit as a first draft is never just a first draft like it would’ve been originally. It’s like a 2.0 or 3.0 reiteration of the same product because you’re using all of that knowledge you gained in the first one. I think it just speeds up the process. Hopefully, makes your life a bit easier, too.
Ameesha
Yeah because you know that I’m gonna be like, “Nope, don’t do that!”
Jym
Yeah, I mean, you do. It’s like a little angel sat on your shoulder! Or devil! Whatever way you want to put it. Yeah. You start second-guessing, “What would Ameesha say?” or “What would her advice be about this?” So you’re able to run through scenarios before the edit. It definitely helps with segmenting my books into parts and the flow, overall structure. And there were also a few things through the editing process you learn what things you’re willing to bend on and what things you’re not. So, there were things I learned in the first one and the second one that made me go, “I took that advice and for good reason, but actually, I think I would probably change it if I could go back now.” You respond to everything the editor says, but often you give options, but you can feel as if I should do this rather than stick with what I originally thought. So, I think I’ve been a little–stubborn is the wrong word–slightly more authentic to myself in this second one and been a bit braver to sort-of say, “You’ve given some options here but, actually, you know, I’m going to stick with that one.”
Ameesha
Yeah, I think that’s a good point. I say most authors take about 90% of what the editor suggests. That’s fine. There are some things that are important to you and you want to keep them that way regardless of whether it comes across a certain way to readers… it’s got to be authentic to you so it’s good by your second or third book you’re a bit braver in terms of what you’re not willing to compromise on or not willing to change.
Jym
I don’t want anyone to take this in the wrong way as well, when you’re working with the sort of feedback you might give, its never as if you’re saying, “I think you should do it this way.” And then I’m ignoring it and sort-of going, “What do you know, Ameesha? I’m going to crack on with the way I saw it.” It’s like you might provide a suggestion that says, “Okay, with this section here or this issue, this might make it appeal to more people if you do this.” So, I’ve got the option of saying, “Okay, I can take that and make it more appealing to a wider audience or I can stick with what I’m doing and might be happier with a narrower audience. The decision is back on you as an author. That’s invaluable. But it also means that you don’t have to take everything that the editor says as, “That means I must change it.”
Ameesha
Yeah, it’s definitely got to be your choice. I think that’s why it’s so important to have such a good relationship with your editor because it has to be someone where you’re comfortable getting that kind of, initially, harsh feedback. But also you can push on certain things and say, “No, I’m happy with this the way it is and this is what we’re going to go with.” But if you don’t feel comfortable or confident with your editor, it’s quite difficult to do that.
Jym
The initiation of the question: is this, for me, going to provide the most value. Sometimes you’ve given some feedback and questioned something, either the way it’s written or the actual information itself and it stops you in your tracks, the sort-of where you have to go, “Well, hang on, do I agree? Do I disagree? Or whatever.” The initiation of the that questioning is what’s valuable. You might end up thinking over it. You might end up changing it or whatever. But, without the initiation of that questioning, you wouldn’t challenge yourself to think: “Well, you know what? If it’s not coming through the editor, then I need to address that.” Without that initiation, you wouldn’t make any of those changes.
Ameesha
Yeah and I think that’s the value of an editor. To have that sense check of something early-on, rather than when you’ve put it out there and you’ve got really bad reviews on Amazon because everyone has misinterpreted you.
Jym
Indeed! Well, you have to get some reviews on Amazon first. But I know where yo’re coming from.
Ameesha
I know that approach works for some people! Just be a controversial as possible.
Jym
Yeah, but that’s part of the issue I have with people being a bit… or feeling disingenuous. You know, you have to have some kind-of really shocking title or shocking revelation because that’s the only way you’re going to get people to follow you or like you or buy your book. Is that the way that we want to live? Everything is about shock and awe. Is there ever any ‘middle-of-the-road’?
Ameesha
Probably because 1.78 millions books are being uploaded every year and people are just trying to stand out. And it is quite difficult to do that, especially if you don’t have a platform as an author already and it goes back to what we’re saying about marketing. But, on a happier subject, what do you think was your best moment in the process of publishing your books.
Jym
It’s really difficult. Again, I don’t want this to come across as… it sounds as if I’m being really self-deprecating or kind-of disparaging of what kind-of a writer’s like. I’m not. I just want it to be a realistic overview. I’m not going to lie to anyone. But at the same time, they might be fleeting moments, but moments like, “If you do your marketing appropriately, say go onto Amazon Charts, for example.” To see my book next to some really big authors, people that are on my bookshelves and that I’ve read numerous books of theirs. To see mine next to them. Even if it’s for an hour or five minutes or five hours or whatever it is. That little screenshot that you can take of seeing your, or even above it, little moments that as much as I’m not big on extrinsic motivation. You can’t help but enjoy those moments. So that really big thing. But I think this second one in particular, it was a bit of an affirmation almost. Or it congratised that I was an author. So, the first one, anyone can do one. Again that’s not to be disparaging towards anyone else that might choose to only ever do one. But, I don’t know, the second one just felt like I’d cemented myself as this wasn’t just a passion and now I genuinely take this seriously. And I want to be an author. Look I’ve got two books. So, I think that overarching sentiment was probably a big thing for me.
Ameesha
Yeah, that’s really interesting, actually. I hadn’t thought about it that way. With the second book it’s almost like you’ve embarked on a career.
Jym
Yeah, it’s like a statement of intent. Do you know what I mean? It says something more than just, “Had an idea and wrote a book!” And, again, that’s nothing against anyone that might choose to do that. I might look back in a couple years and think, “Oh I should’ve stopped at 1.” It was a big moment for me to keep the journey going so that it wasn’t just, you know, a bucket list situation that remains just a novelty. I wanted it to be something more than that and the second one really cemented that for me.
Ameesha
Ah, that’s awesome. Do you feel like it’s worked well with your career plans generally?
Jym
Yeah. I think it, generally, I think it’s all about expectation management. So, if you’re not a minor celebrity, it is going to be an absolute slog of the journey. But I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. But it’s definitely this second one that’s helped to create more credibility. Massively helped with marketing your own brand as an author or speaker or consultant. Either you’ve got a book… There’s a big difference between a book and two books. People are like, “Oh!” As soon as it becomes plural, there’s this extra kudos that gets subscribed to you. So, I definitely think it’s helped. Even having things like you’ve got two front covers that you can put in marketing material. It’s those back-catalogue of material. I think that’s really, really valuable.
Ameesha
Yeah and I think it all goes toward building that platform, doesn’t it? You know, you’ve got your YouTube channel, as well.
Jym
Yeah, there’s nothing on it yet. But it will be. But it was the second book that’s provided the material that is making the YouTube channel. I could’ve done it on the last one, but I’ve sort-of found my feet and found my little niche now. So, I mentioned Nassim Taleb previously. His niche is randomness. My niche is intellectual humility. Philosophical philosophy, that sort-of element. So, without this second book, I wouldn’t have channelled it in as specifically as what I have done. It was an overarching theme of the first one, but it wasn’t a specific context of it. If you know where I’m coming from?
Ameesha
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I think there are lots of authors who do that. They, kind-of, find their niche and that’s what they write in. You see a lot in fiction. And, I guess, with nonfiction it’s a little bit more varied. You have some authors like Malcolm Gladwell where he’s writing on much more broad topics, but I think it can be really good for you, as an individual, especially as you’re trying to build your credibility to find your niche and the way you present yourself as the expert, don’t you? And that’s when you get invited to do TED Talks.
Jym
Yeah. It’s tough because I’m, essentially, peddling the idea and that no one’s an expert. Yeah, which is, why my marketing is so difficult. So again, it’s probably going to be easier for people who are listening, have made it convoluted by nature. I’m my own worst enemy, in that regard.
Ameesha
Yeah, I say expert in inverted commas. I think we’re the same. I’m sure I know a lot about nonfiction books, but I still wouldn’t call myself an expert because I don’t know everything there is to know on the topic. But I think that my kind-of threshold, maybe, is knowing more than 90% of the population on this subject. And, if you can, pass the knowledge on.
Jym
Yeah. Absolutely. Not trying to explain that people can’t be deemed as experts, but it’s brutally complicated to get over in brief conversation. But, just that idea of, it’s difficult, for me, to market myself. You kind-of have to have a level of self-assurance. But that self-assurance is, to some degree, the thing I’m advocating against. Puts me in a really difficult position. But doubt there’s anyone else who should have the same struggle unless they decide to write the same book as me so…
Ameesha
If they do, I’ll just send them your way. You can just go and have some intellectual conversations.
Jym
Yeah, there you go. Just give them my manuscript.
Ameesha
Oh, no, really interesting. I mean, what skills do you feel have been the most important on this whole journey?
Jym
I would love to say writing itself. But I don’t think it is. Now, again, I don’t want that to come across badly because it’s the most important, for me personally, but it terms of to go to your question there. In terms of this entire journey, it’s the marketing and the Amazon algorithm, keywords, category words, you know, all that sort-of stuff. That’s probably the most significant. Because, ultimately, if no one ever finds your book, the saying that I often give to people is… I could’ve written the best book anyone’s ever seen, but no one gives a shit because no one knows who I am. Do you know what I mean? Unfortunately, it diminishes or can seem like it diminishes the part of writing itself which I value massively. I know you do as well. But, for self-published authors and for me, personally, the biggest, most significant part of the journey has been learning the rest. Stuff that I didn’t want to do, and have no desire to do whatsoever. I don’t want to be my own publicist, but it’s just part of the gig.
Ameesha
Yeah, I think it’s just part of the challenge in self-publishing, isn’t it? We’ve talked a lot about traditional publishing and other aspects of self-publishing, haven’t we? Over the past few years? And I think it’s just one of those… Self-publishing is incredible because it opens the floodgates for anyone, anywhere to publish a book regardless of whether they’ve got a particular background in writing. In some way, it’s been absolutely brilliant and it’s kept me in the job, but you know, it also has its challenges and I don’t think there’s necessarily a great way to overcome those at the moment and maybe because it’s still a relatively new industry… it’s probably only been the last 10 years that self-publishing has really taken off and maybe there will be incredible book marketing companies that pop up with publicists for self-published authors. But at the moment, it’s very much all on the individual. And also it can be very expensive! Technically, it’s free, isn’t it? You can whack a book on amazon tomorrow and not pay a penny. But, in reality, you want a book that looks professional and looks as good as something that penguin would put out there and sounds professional. Then, you’ve got to pay for editors and designers and proofreaders. You can’t just put it up there and do it all yourself and think it’s going to be the same standard and something that a traditional publisher would put out there.
Jym
Yeah and that’s why when people have said to me in the past, “How difficult is it to write a book?” And I struggled to answer because, on the one hand, anyone can write a book. You could write a short story tonight and publish it on Amazon tomorrow and people could purchase it. It could be in there postbox in 72 hours. But it doesn’t mean it’s any good. Now, I’m not suggesting mine is any good either, but there’s a certain degree of commitment and attention and follow-through that I think is required like paying for your services and the design. You know, all those things previously. So, it’s not cheap at all. But it’s one of those that you have to make a decision. Do you want to do something that you’re proud of? Or do you just want to do something? If you just want to do something and you want to write a book and be a “published author” (in adverted commas), yeah, at night, weekend, whenever. You could have a book. And there are loads of YouTube clips of people doing that sort-of thing, but if you want something like I said, that is your legacy, you know. A genuine attempt at creating something, like you said, that Penguin would do… I remember when I was first figuring out… I was about halfway through writing my first book and I spoke to a hybrid publisher. I don’t know if anyone will have come across these previously. They’re not a vanity publisher, but they’re not a traditional publishing house as well. They’re this… in their words hybrid. They’re a halfway house.
Ameesha
Yeah, you pay a bit and they pay a bit.
Jym
You pay them more than, let’s say I would pay you. But they would throw in marketing, editing, design, all of those things together and… the woman I spoke to… she was a lovely woman, but she was quite disparaging about the self-publishing world; the self-publishing market. She said things like, “You can spot a self-published book a mile off.” And, at the time, I didn’t have any basis of comparison so I just took it on face value so I was reticent to go down the self-publishing route, but then, really, it was finances that led me down that path. But then once I did my first one and I worked with you for a long time… I actually met someone that had published through her and I read their book. And it’s a good job you can spot the self-published book a mile off because it gave the impression that the standard of that book was going to be much higher. It really wasn’t whatsoever. They kind-of churn out in a machine-like fashion. The topics are different but they might as well be the same in terms of structure, layout, size, whatever. There’s nothing authentic about it in terms of from the author, but she was completely disparaging about self-publishing. So, it was almost like, “I want to try and prove that wrong. Can I create the sort-of product, like you said that Penguin would produce but through myself and through the selection of relevant people and their expertise?” It was a mission but it’s definitely doable.
Ameesha
Yeah, I completely agree. I think it’s sad that people still have that opinion and I think what they’re talking about is self-published books where the author has done it all themselves. And, I’ll be honest, I can spot a self-published cover that the author has created themselves a mile away because they just don’t know about cover design and that’s not in a harsh way, just in a… you can tell from the font or the colours they’ve chosen because so much goes into choosing a cover, you know it’s a piece of marketing material and you’ve got to have the knowledge of genre standards to… even down to the colours you used in the genre so it doesn’t confuse the reader and modern fonts and everything about that and I think a lot of authors just don’t have that knowledge. But I think the issue with companies like vanity publishers and hybrid publishers are, yes you’re paying someone to potentially eidt, design your book and all of that, but you’re not choosing those people yourself. You are hiring a company, but you’re not picking the people who will understand your vision, I think that for less money you can self-publish, you can pick your own freelancers, hire the team that you want, you keep complete control over it and you still keep with the vision you had in mind and I think people don’t realise thatm that necessarily is an option. You know, they kind-of think, “Oh, it’s either try and get a traditional publisher or go with a vanity publisher because they’re offering a deal or just pay this company to do it.” When you can go out and find a fantastic team who are willing to just invest a bit of time to browse some freelance platforms to find the right people for you.
Jym
I don’t know what the traditional publishing world is like because I got it secondhand from a friend of mine who is a traditionally published author so he’s given me some insight, but… Yeah, I don’t know personally what that world is like but just to echo the things you said there, the control you have while in some ways a poison chalice because you’re the only one who can do it. You’re the only one who can make the decisions and you’ve actually got to go and find those people. You’ve got to spend the time finding, you know, your designer… Can you work with them? Can you not? An editor. Can you work with them? Can you not? So, in that regard it’s a bit of a challenge in itself but I can look at my own book on my own bookshelf. I think, I’ve agreed, suggested, planned, written every single part of that product there. It’s not vicariously mine, in terms of it being a hybrid publisher. Their rule: they didn’t want anyone’s book to be more than 45,000 words long because it impacts readability, but like, I’ve got more to say.
Ameesha
Yeah.
Jym
Do you know what I mean? Things like that… little rules that these people have churn out in this mechanistic fashion is books.
Ameesha
Yeah, but ultimately, they’re making their money from authors and not readers and I think that’s where the ethical dilemma comes into it. Because if, as a company, where you’re a vanity publisher or a hybrid publisher, if you’re making your money from the author then what incentive is there for you to produce something that’s really high quality because, ultimately, it doesn’t matter to you whether readers buy it or not. And you can see why companies have this, “Well, lets just try and get as many authors onboard because then we’ll make the most money.” When, actually, it should be about, “What’s the highest quality product that we can put out there and that we can be proud of as a company?” You know, like authors we worked with, we’re really proud of those books because they’re fantastic. And whether anyone buys them or reads them is another matter, but if we’re not proud of it as a company, then I wouldn’t be doing this. So, I think it goes down to it as you said, you’ve got to be proud of it as an individual. But also, you hope that your editor and designer are proud of what they’ve helped you put out there as well.
Jym
It’s actually an impossible situation, but if I suddenly turned into a minor celebrity tomorrow and got some publishing contract, they would have their own editors and I would be like, “What about Ameesha?” Do you know what I mean? So, I’m not going to lie and say it doesn’t come with it’s own challenges, but if someone was to offer me a significant-enough contract with a traditional publisher that meant I could sell a million copies, you’d be hardpressed to go, “No! I’m going to stick being a self-published author and continue to grind away doing a few instagram posts.” But, yeah, the joy you can being in control of these things and because you believe it is in the service of the people that read it. There’s a different mindset that goes with it.
Ameesha
Yeah, totally agree, but like everyone we work with just has this innate desire to put something of value out there into the world and to genuinely help people improve or to change their lives and personally, I think that’s really valuable. But my final question is: If you had one piece of advice for an aspiring author, what would it be?
Jym
I’m torn between a couple of things.
Ameesha
You can have two.
Jym
Well, one would be the management of expectations and that coming with a strapline of a multitude of things like: how long it takes to write, definitely how long it takes to edit. So, when you get your first draft back, when you get it back, it is a real rabbit in the headlights moment because you’ve poured your heart and soul into something for however long it’s taken and then someone wants to edit a little bit and I’m torn to pieces. It’s really tough because it’s tough to compartamentalise everything. So, you said to me when you sent it back, sent my first one back, “Take a week or whatever to digest this.” Because I’m quite a get-on-it individual and want to crack on, I was like, “No. I’ll just get on it straight away.” And it was nigh on impossible to do it straightaway. Things like how long it takes to edit it and market something… just manage your expectations way, way further down the line than what you think, even if you’re being quite generous… be more generous would be the thing. The other would be: focus on making it the best product you can but without turning it into a laborious task. So, still try and keep the inspiration the passion as the main focal point. You need to draw a line somewhere and say, “Okay, I can’t keep tweaking it anymore.” And if you read people like Matthew Sahid who’s like, “Get your product to market sooner rather than later.” But there’s a fine balance between those things so I think try and make it as good quality as you can but draw a line and, in doing so, be sure that it doesn’t become a laborious task and is something you enjoy doing. If it stops being something you enjoy doing that’s probably when you should just stop in general.
Ameesha
Oh, I completely agree with you. It’s scary putting it out there, but there’s the risk you can go back and forth with your editor, just saying, “Can you just check this? Can you change this?” I’ve worked with a few authors like that and it’s come to a point where I’m like, “Just publish it!” If you go back and forth forever, there will always be something you could’ve done better or you’ve gone, “Oh, I should’ve done that a bit differently.”
Jym
I’ve had to do that a lot. So, with the first… Again, even though you’ve got a proofreader, a typesetter, a cover designer, an editor… my first book and stupidly so, I found as people were reading it, and I’ve got a fair amount of goodwill that’s I’ve exhausted now, a lot of people were reading it in the first few weeks saying, “Oh, Jym, I’ve found this of page-4 or on page-56, there’s this and there’s a mis-print.” So I had to keep updating the copy, but then you have to keep going back to the typesetter to redo the typesetting because it can upset the entire layout of the book. So, I was doing those as and when they came. Whereas now, I do it in batches because it costs you each time. So, you still need to appreciate there may be a few tweaks. You don’t just put it out into the ether and it just sits there forever, you still have to update somethings, but that’s okay. Like, it’s okay, that I ended up purchasing about 40 author copies and then found that the running head of Part 4 and the Conclusion all said, ‘Part 1.’ So I just 40 copies and they’re all incorrect.
Ameesha
Yeah, you know what, actually? That kind-of goes in a circle back to the beginning talking about the humility thing… one of the things that I always see in the publishing industry is that typos are a crime. People see typos as a this mark of, “You didn’t put any effort in!” “Didn’t hire a proofreader or your book must be awful!” When, actually, typos used to be a celebrated thing. Back in the day when people used to type everything in place and it was too difficult to just reprint the whole book, they would have a page of irata at the back of the book and it would just have anything that’s changed or any typos and it was almost like a celebrated thing that people found these and they were improving the book and I think it’s almost sad now that we see it as such a heinous thing if we see a typo, but we’re human beings, we’re going to miss things, you know? There’s not a book in the world out there that doesn’t have a typo in it. You see, we can all just be a bit more humble about typos and just think, “You know what? It shows that we’re human.”
Jym
I spotted in Penguin books and in everything else, probably one book or a couple books, but for self-published authors out there, they’ll have a team of what? Three? Four? Proofreaders? Maybe more? Possibly? I’m not sure how many iterations it goes through before it actually gets published. So, when you have to pay for everything that you get, you have to be like, “Okay, I’ve paid for a proofreader.” You almost go like, “That’s enough now.” If they miss something. You miss something. Between the three of you; you, your editor, your proofreader. If you’re a normal publishing house, you’ll have double, triple the amount of people working on it. So, the fact that a couple of typos have crept through isn’t that big a deal. So, like you say, to deem that as a kind-of failure is the wrong way of looking at it, I think.
Ameesha
Yeah. I find it really sad actually. Like, I can forgive a few typos in a book, but I can forgive if a book has a terrible structure because you didn’t hire an editor and then, you’re more bothered by the typos as well as the fact the book is inherently awful! Or it just has no value to it.
Jym
I reckon that all the ones I said that came from that hybrid publisher… the author had made some citations, some references, you know some superscript in the first chapter or so, first chapter and a half or so, and in total, it was 4-5, and obviously, in nonfiction, depending on how you write things, narrative nonfiction vs. whatever, you can have more or less of those. I had a lot in my books. There were 4-5 and it was, as if the first chapter, they just stopped referencing. So there were 10s of situations where it was relevant to put a citation, put a scriptnote notation and they just stopped doing it and this was one of those publishing houses that just were like, “We can spot a self-publihsed author from a mile out.” I’m thinking, “Well you only bothered going throug rigorous publishing processes. You stopped doing it after the first two chapters and just let that you know, carry on.” At what stage do you turn around and go, “Here’s your book now. Here’s your note section. Here are 5 citations.”
Ameesha
One chapter to nothing
Jym
And they all come from the first two chapters. That’s a problem, is it not?
Ameesha
Yeah, and yet, people will be more offended by a typo.
Jym
By a typo, yeah!
Ameesha
It’s a crazy world.
Jym
Isn’t it just? Isn’t it just? Yeah, they’re the sort-of thing that drive me a bit crazy. But, then again, it’s up to us. You know, you’ve got a choice in how much work and effort you put into these things and like you said, cover design. Can I give a shout-out to my cover designer?
Ameesha
Please do!
Jym
Vanessa Mendozzi. Find her on Reedsy and that’s pretty much the only way she does business: through Reedsy. But a wonderful, wonderful designer. And so fast with the quality that she produces. So excellent. So, Vanessa, if she does end up hearing this: I do try and sing her praises as much as possible and obviously, hopefully, people have come to their realisation that, as a self-publihsed author, they know of you. But I was astounded by the level of knowledge and information that I got from my first edit in particular. I think it was well-above and beyond what I paid for.
Ameesha
Ah, well I’m glad! I like to exceed peoples’ expectations. But it’s been so fun working with you and on these books and I feel like I’ve learned quite a lot which is obviously a major benefit of what I do which is learning from every book. And, obviously, I look forward to seeing your future books and thank you for coming on the podcast.
Jym
Thank you, Ameesha! Yeah, all the best to The Book Shelf because it’s a brilliant company that I just think anyone who is looking to self-publish… I’ve not found anywhere that would satisfy those needs better than what I get from your guys and as I say, “I’ll never go anywhere else.” Unless I get that million dollar contract and then I’ll drop you.
Ameesha
If you do, I’ll be literally shouting from the rooftops. I’ll be like, “We worked with this guy! He’s famous!” Ah, honestly, your books are absolutely brilliant so I do recommend everyone goes out and buy them!
Jym
And spot the typos.
Ameesha
Send the typos in, but also have a little bit more intellectual humility themselves.
Jym
Thank you very much.
Ameesha
Yeah, thanks Jym!
We can’t wait for you to join us as we talk more about writing, publishing, and self-improvement on this podcast. And we’d love to hear from you! What tips would you find useful? What questions do you need answered? You can find us on our website, Instagram, TikTok, and Twitter @thebookshelf.ltd. Send us your questions via social media! We’d love to hear from you.
In the next chapter, we’ll be speaking to Adam Jones, author of You are Going to Fucking Die, so unless you really don’t like swearing, you definitely don’t want to miss this one.
The music featured in today’s episode is ‘Set Free’ by Katie Gray which you can find on Apple Music and Spotify.
Thanks for listening to the Better Shelves podcast, we’ll see you in the next chapter!